I'm trying to think of which of my current ones I can ditch to "borrow" #7 - LOVE that moment so much. LOVE that entire sequence. fttstar07 and I were squeeing about it the other day. (She's written some meta to prove that Buffy loved Spike in S7 and I was all over it "Her face! Her eyes! Why don't people SEE it!"
I do also like #12 - I like the contrast of the very cool blues and the red-hot edges. It just glows.
Thankyou. Love the scene 7 is from as well. Love the way the look at each other. I think she did indeed love him - she just didn't know it until the end.
Agree to disagree on that tiny point - not being able to verbalize the word to my mind isn't the same thing as not knowing. If that makes sense? Angearia, blackfrancine, and ever_neutral had a great conversation about this point, about how Buffy in specific and perhaps all Slayers, understand love through service, though action, in gabrielleabelle's LJ post "Love of All Type" - with a gorgeous picspam http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/273029.html
And maybe, it's so hard for her vocalize her feelings because she's so constantly expressing her love in these other ways. To be forced to vocalize it feels almost like a rejection of all these acts of service--and these acts are what Buffy feels are the true expression of herself and her love. So, it's like her love is rejected, and then she has to immediately try and open herself up using words right after that rejection.
It's not that she didn't know it, but she didn't know how to put a name to it, they were afraid of repeating the badness of S6 or pinning their hopes on anything. And part of what I love so so much about S7 is that Buffy&Spike are negotiating an entirely new relationship, one for which there is NO template or model. Angel ("true love") and Riley, she had cultural models for at the very least - the ideas of what love looks like in books, movies, tv; her relationship with Spike doesn't fit any of that.
And I do recommend fftstar07's posts. NOT that they're (or I'm) going to change your mind on that account, of course! You know me I just can't help but go to bat for Buffy; but she's told so often that her love is insufficient, and in S5 she actually comes to believe that she's turning to stone, that she drove Riley away - fuck you, Riley - and even that her mother didn't know she loved her (which is patently untrue) so it hurts my heart a little when the notion is repeated and pretty widely believed, I think, in fandom. *sobs quietly into pillow*
Now you may be saying that she didn't know she was romantically "in love" with him until the end, and fair enough - but I'm not really fussed about that distinction and that seems to be important to a lot of people. That's what fftstar07's posts are about, so I might sound like a hypocrite to say, that never really mattered to me. But I guess my experience of "in love" has been that initial, breathless romantic period that brings two people together, and it's lovely and fun whereas LOVE, genuine love, with or without romance, is hard, hard work. Worthwhile work (and sometimes that "work" means knowing when to let go, instead of staying together. It can mean a great many things.) but work nonetheless; a relationship isn't a Hallmark card.
But you know I ship those two so so hard during S7.
I need to qualify my thoughts here. I agree with the she loves through action thingy. I think this is the love we feel for good friends, parents, siblings. She loves Spike this way. As she says to Angel, he's in my heart.
I agree with you that they spend S7 rebuilding/building a relationship. In S6 they had barely started down the track of friendship before they started the sex. The sex stopped that growing relationship and changed it to something else.
In S7 she realises that he is in her heart. She does love him. I think she does not realise until the final moments in the hell mouth, that she is 'in love' with him. As they clasp hands you can see the moment she has a relevation. (I think) She gasps at the feelings, the realisation of what she is feeling. She loves him and is 'in' love with him. I think he sees that when he looks at her. Then because he needs to finish what he started, he needs to be a man, he sends her packing. He is fulfilling his speech. He is sending her on to be what she is.
I actually love that phrase, which I know will get me thoroughly thrashed (poss. drawn & quartered?) in fandom. There will be meta someday (honest), but there's something about NOT putting a label on things, not assuming ownership over something that really speaks to me. I think the show is really consistent about that. Angel is right back to policing and defining her personal life, just as Xander did so often (and stops doing in S7) but as Giles continues to do - it's Logos, the Word, defining, shaping, boxing in and possessing through a label or an expectation. To me, "he's in my heart" is actually a huge deal - Joyce is in her heart - she's the source of Buffy's love, the person who taught Buffy how to love; Dawn is in her heart, a part of her the person she died for. To be in her heart? To be in Buffy Summer's "Achilles heel", the source of her love? That to me is a singular HONOR. I just love that notion so much.
But I also think I identify with it as a lesbian - there is no nifty, agreed-upon "label" for what my partner is to me, no "husband" or "wife" or "spouse" in the legal sense. (it may be different in Australia, I don't know?) I say "partner" and people assume "business partner"; I say "lover" and people focus on the sexual aspect; I say "sweetie" a lot but she doesn't like that. People ask if she's my mother, my sister, what are you to one another? (Domestic partner sounds stupid IMO, and unwieldy - and "significant other"? Other WHAT, exactly?) this is Judy. We just are. They want a label. And I don't have one. Nothing covers it.
But I do understand, people want her to say it, or want to define it. I get that. I like what stormwreath had to say on the subject on one of Angearia's wonderful metas: that what she's feeling for him is "apape" more than eros, "love of God, pure spiritual love" and he argues that it's not a second-best substitute as we think nowadays. But it took me months to understand what he was saying. http://angearia.livejournal.com/247276.html?thread=7015148#t7015148 It's interesting how W/T both mirrors and reverses B/S - W/T start with a mystical/spiritual union and romance (with a sexual component) and end in a very grounded, physical relationship (tragically cut short); B/S start with the physical and end with a mystical, spiritual union. But instead of the tragedy of Tara being shot to death, an innocent bystander, or Buffy having to kill Angel to save the world, Spike sacrifices himself, as Buffy did in the Gift, in PG. And it's glorious. (And Tara never gets that, just ugly death *sniffle*)
In S6 they had barely started down the track of friendship before they started the sex. The sex stopped that growing relationship and changed it to something else.
YES! YES! ALL OF THIS! Absolutely so. And I love that they get that back but on another level altogether, as your SB/Touched picspam/artwork illustrates. (is it called picspam or what? IDK the terms around here. Idiot me.)
I think she does not realise until the final moments in the hell mouth, that she is 'in love' with him.
Agree to disagree - and I respect where you're coming from. Admittedly I can't pinpoint the moment when she loves him or is in love with him, except I went mad with joy when I watched her rescue him in Showtime. And the odd thing is - I don't care really whether she loved him or was in love with him when she said ILY; and I suspect that makes me the odd duck in fandom? (I have no idea if I'm making any sense at all. Argh.)
I think he sees that when he looks at her. Then because he needs to finish what he started, he needs to be a man, he sends her packing. He is fulfilling his speech.
Oh absolutely. More agreement, yay! Remember "Lovers Walk"? "...but I can't lie to myself. Or to Spike, for some reason." Everyone talks about the "someday she'll tell you" line in Help, but not the line in Lovers Walk. And I've seen a lot of discussion that "death" is his gift to her (in dying he gives her life); but I think it also can be said in reverse: death is her gift to him - a MEANINGFUL death, as a Champion and a Man. Death, life, they give one another. Oh Buffy & Spike...I squee therefore I am.
Now I have to go eat.
Of the good. I had two bites of oatmeal yesterday and forgot to eat the rest of the day. And I think the steroids from the epidural from my back have caused my weight to go from 135 to over 150 in less than a month. *pouts*
Yes! Agree. Though I don't think it is her achilles heal at all. It is her strength. After all that is where we get our true strength from if we are lucky. From those we hold dearest to us. That we have placed in our heart. Yes! Joyce taught her to love. Actually love is such an overused word. I love chocolate, peanuts, blue skies. I'm not really sure what love is. Some think that to be in love is a transient state. If one falls 'in love' one can fall 'out of love'. So I don't know. </>there is no nifty, agreed-upon "label" for what my partner is to me
I think 'partner' is the pc term all round these days. Same sex has no legal standing other than it is legal to have a same sex relationship in private, in Australia. There is no legal recognition, as far as I know, in any state of Oz for a same sex relationship.
One of my brother's partners - woman, they just weren't married - hated any title being put in front of her name. You know Ms, Miss, Mrs. Now me, I don't care. Well okay I did not like my mother in law so I used to object to being called Mrs O'Connor for a while there. :D Not really though.
My best friend is a woman. I call her my girl friend. Some people assume that we are lesbians when I say that, if they don't know us. I went to the US with a friend - another girlfriend. We were assumed by quite a few we met - particularly in San Francisco - to be in a relationship. The world is still sorting all this relationship stuff out. People shoot other people because they think they are looking at them wrong, so it is not surprising that after a couple of millenia of the bible telling us what to think and do about sex, we still haven't a buggering clue. :D
Hubby and I have been married 27 years. Today that is wrong. We should have had several partners in that time by the standards that run through society these days.
*pouts*
Bugger! I'd pout too. Steroids do that. They are a miracle drug, my mum wouldn't be here without them, but they do have unpleasant side effects.
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ninetydegrees
no subject
2013-05-26 10:36 (UTC)no subject
2013-05-26 20:30 (UTC)no subject
2013-05-26 17:18 (UTC)no subject
2013-05-26 20:30 (UTC)no subject
2013-05-27 00:00 (UTC)I do also like #12 - I like the contrast of the very cool blues and the red-hot edges. It just glows.
no subject
2013-05-27 17:58 (UTC)Having fun playing with colours. :D
no subject
2013-05-27 18:30 (UTC)And maybe, it's so hard for her vocalize her feelings because she's so constantly expressing her love in these other ways. To be forced to vocalize it feels almost like a rejection of all these acts of service--and these acts are what Buffy feels are the true expression of herself and her love. So, it's like her love is rejected, and then she has to immediately try and open herself up using words right after that rejection.
It's not that she didn't know it, but she didn't know how to put a name to it, they were afraid of repeating the badness of S6 or pinning their hopes on anything. And part of what I love so so much about S7 is that Buffy&Spike are negotiating an entirely new relationship, one for which there is NO template or model. Angel ("true love") and Riley, she had cultural models for at the very least - the ideas of what love looks like in books, movies, tv; her relationship with Spike doesn't fit any of that.
And I do recommend fftstar07's posts. NOT that they're (or I'm) going to change your mind on that account, of course! You know me I just can't help but go to bat for Buffy; but she's told so often that her love is insufficient, and in S5 she actually comes to believe that she's turning to stone, that she drove Riley away - fuck you, Riley - and even that her mother didn't know she loved her (which is patently untrue) so it hurts my heart a little when the notion is repeated and pretty widely believed, I think, in fandom. *sobs quietly into pillow*
Now you may be saying that she didn't know she was romantically "in love" with him until the end, and fair enough - but I'm not really fussed about that distinction and that seems to be important to a lot of people. That's what fftstar07's posts are about, so I might sound like a hypocrite to say, that never really mattered to me. But I guess my experience of "in love" has been that initial, breathless romantic period that brings two people together, and it's lovely and fun whereas LOVE, genuine love, with or without romance, is hard, hard work. Worthwhile work (and sometimes that "work" means knowing when to let go, instead of staying together. It can mean a great many things.) but work nonetheless; a relationship isn't a Hallmark card.
But you know I ship those two so so hard during S7.
no subject
2013-05-28 08:08 (UTC)I agree with you that they spend S7 rebuilding/building a relationship. In S6 they had barely started down the track of friendship before they started the sex. The sex stopped that growing relationship and changed it to something else.
In S7 she realises that he is in her heart. She does love him. I think she does not realise until the final moments in the hell mouth, that she is 'in love' with him. As they clasp hands you can see the moment she has a relevation. (I think) She gasps at the feelings, the realisation of what she is feeling. She loves him and is 'in' love with him. I think he sees that when he looks at her. Then because he needs to finish what he started, he needs to be a man, he sends her packing. He is fulfilling his speech. He is sending her on to be what she is.
Wow. Now I have to go eat. Been a long day. :D
no subject
2013-05-29 16:29 (UTC)I actually love that phrase, which I know will get me thoroughly thrashed (poss. drawn & quartered?) in fandom. There will be meta someday (honest), but there's something about NOT putting a label on things, not assuming ownership over something that really speaks to me. I think the show is really consistent about that. Angel is right back to policing and defining her personal life, just as Xander did so often (and stops doing in S7) but as Giles continues to do - it's Logos, the Word, defining, shaping, boxing in and possessing through a label or an expectation. To me, "he's in my heart" is actually a huge deal - Joyce is in her heart - she's the source of Buffy's love, the person who taught Buffy how to love; Dawn is in her heart, a part of her the person she died for. To be in her heart? To be in Buffy Summer's "Achilles heel", the source of her love? That to me is a singular HONOR. I just love that notion so much.
But I also think I identify with it as a lesbian - there is no nifty, agreed-upon "label" for what my partner is to me, no "husband" or "wife" or "spouse" in the legal sense. (it may be different in Australia, I don't know?) I say "partner" and people assume "business partner"; I say "lover" and people focus on the sexual aspect; I say "sweetie" a lot but she doesn't like that. People ask if she's my mother, my sister, what are you to one another? (Domestic partner sounds stupid IMO, and unwieldy - and "significant other"? Other WHAT, exactly?) this is Judy. We just are. They want a label. And I don't have one. Nothing covers it.
But I do understand, people want her to say it, or want to define it. I get that. I like what
http://angearia.livejournal.com/247276.html?thread=7015148#t7015148
It's interesting how W/T both mirrors and reverses B/S - W/T start with a mystical/spiritual union and romance (with a sexual component) and end in a very grounded, physical relationship (tragically cut short); B/S start with the physical and end with a mystical, spiritual union. But instead of the tragedy of Tara being shot to death, an innocent bystander, or Buffy having to kill Angel to save the world, Spike sacrifices himself, as Buffy did in the Gift, in PG. And it's glorious. (And Tara never gets that, just ugly death *sniffle*)
In S6 they had barely started down the track of friendship before they started the sex. The sex stopped that growing relationship and changed it to something else.
YES! YES! ALL OF THIS! Absolutely so. And I love that they get that back but on another level altogether, as your SB/Touched picspam/artwork illustrates. (is it called picspam or what? IDK the terms around here. Idiot me.)
I think she does not realise until the final moments in the hell mouth, that she is 'in love' with him.
Agree to disagree - and I respect where you're coming from. Admittedly I can't pinpoint the moment when she loves him or is in love with him, except I went mad with joy when I watched her rescue him in Showtime. And the odd thing is - I don't care really whether she loved him or was in love with him when she said ILY; and I suspect that makes me the odd duck in fandom? (I have no idea if I'm making any sense at all. Argh.)
I think he sees that when he looks at her. Then because he needs to finish what he started, he needs to be a man, he sends her packing. He is fulfilling his speech.
Oh absolutely. More agreement, yay! Remember "Lovers Walk"? "...but I can't lie to myself. Or to Spike, for some reason." Everyone talks about the "someday she'll tell you" line in Help, but not the line in Lovers Walk. And I've seen a lot of discussion that "death" is his gift to her (in dying he gives her life); but I think it also can be said in reverse: death is her gift to him - a MEANINGFUL death, as a Champion and a Man. Death, life, they give one another. Oh Buffy & Spike...I squee therefore I am.
Now I have to go eat.
Of the good. I had two bites of oatmeal yesterday and forgot to eat the rest of the day. And I think the steroids from the epidural from my back have caused my weight to go from 135 to over 150 in less than a month. *pouts*
no subject
2013-05-30 09:48 (UTC)Yes! Agree. Though I don't think it is her achilles heal at all. It is her strength. After all that is where we get our true strength from if we are lucky. From those we hold dearest to us. That we have placed in our heart.
Yes! Joyce taught her to love.
Actually love is such an overused word. I love chocolate, peanuts, blue skies. I'm not really sure what love is. Some think that to be in love is a transient state. If one falls 'in love' one can fall 'out of love'. So I don't know.
</>there is no nifty, agreed-upon "label" for what my partner is to me
I think 'partner' is the pc term all round these days. Same sex has no legal standing other than it is legal to have a same sex relationship in private, in Australia. There is no legal recognition, as far as I know, in any state of Oz for a same sex relationship.
One of my brother's partners - woman, they just weren't married - hated any title being put in front of her name. You know Ms, Miss, Mrs. Now me, I don't care. Well okay I did not like my mother in law so I used to object to being called Mrs O'Connor for a while there. :D Not really though.
My best friend is a woman. I call her my girl friend. Some people assume that we are lesbians when I say that, if they don't know us. I went to the US with a friend - another girlfriend. We were assumed by quite a few we met - particularly in San Francisco - to be in a relationship. The world is still sorting all this relationship stuff out. People shoot other people because they think they are looking at them wrong, so it is not surprising that after a couple of millenia of the bible telling us what to think and do about sex, we still haven't a buggering clue. :D
Hubby and I have been married 27 years. Today that is wrong. We should have had several partners in that time by the standards that run through society these days.
*pouts*
Bugger! I'd pout too. Steroids do that. They are a miracle drug, my mum wouldn't be here without them, but they do have unpleasant side effects.
no subject
2013-05-27 17:29 (UTC)no subject
2013-05-27 17:58 (UTC)